QPP 45: Leon Taylor on Car Stops, Race, and Fear
Former podcast co-host Leon Taylor comes back to talk about car stops, race, and fear.
Audio:
https://www.spreaker.com/episode/44307765
The youtube link:
And the automated non-perfect transcription:
[00:00:04] Hello and welcome again to Quality Policing, I am Peter Moskos, and I’m here with my old co-host, Leon Taylor. Thanks for thanks for giving me a call, Leon. My pleasure solely on called me. Why did you call me today, Leon, just to tell me you love me?
[00:00:25] Huh? Well, I think I was trying to process the various incidents of police use of force, but I was unable to because they came in such rapid succession. I had to wait for a while.
[00:00:42] Today is, what is it, April 12th? Twenty twenty one. And let’s talk about that car stop in Windsor, Virginia. I actually hadn’t watched the videotape just now because I heard summaries from people I respect. And I was like, man, it’s it’s it’s messed up. And macing car is a kind of a dick move and I don’t know what was going on. So can you give me a rundown on what what you saw and what you thought? How did how did it start? First of all?
[00:01:14] I mean, it’s something it’s not unfamiliar. I mean, you know, you see a vehicle that doesn’t have a rear license plate and is as I understand it, there was the windows were tinted, that sort of thing. And. So they initiated a car stop and the gentleman who happened to be on active duty, Army medical officer, decided that he would wait until he was in a well hit area to pull over. Now, to my way of thinking, if I was an officer in that position, I would feel reassured by that, because from a tactical perspective, I mean, no one is going to choose a well lit area with cameras before they’re going to try to hurt you. So instead of the situation being deescalated, it seems like it. The officer and the military officer, the lieutenant had no confidence in the abilities of police to effect a car stop, and it seemed like, you know, they were surprised that it was someone of authority. And so it became more or less a contest of wills.
[00:02:34] So the car, so, yeah, the first so the car doesn’t stop immediately, I’m not certain, I think it goes about a mile on a highway, maybe a mile and a half. So we’re talking like two minutes. But the driver goes to a well, that place. And I think it’s important emphasize what you just said, that from an officer’s standpoint, that should actually you might be wondering, I mean, first, you might be on guard wondering why he’s not pulling over. But when he does pull over in a well lit place, that should be reassuring. Right? Exactly. Because if you’re going to cap the cop, you would prefer to do it on a dark road without cameras and lights.
[00:03:07] You would think.
[00:03:08] You would think so. Then what happens?
[00:03:15] Chaos ensues, chaos and say, why,
[00:03:19] why does it ensue?
[00:03:21] Well, the way I kind of interpret what I’ve seen in the video is that they were perturbed because he didn’t immediately pull over. So I think they interpreted that as noncompliance on the officer’s part. Now, had this been I daresay had the driver of the vehicle been a white female who was. More palatable to the officer who, you know, you can understand them having to concern about being pulled over in a in a dark place. I don’t think any of this would have happened, but it was a black army officer.
[00:03:59] Now, I want to mention, because I know people listening, I have no reason to actually know or remember this, but you were both a Baltimore City police officer and before that you were an MP, correct? Right. So you can put yourself in all the shoes here. If if if you put on your top hat nice points and all what and you see someone in a uniform, full uniform, what what does that immediately put your mind at ease or what? What does that mean to you?
[00:04:34] Well, I mean, I know that I’m not looking I’m not looking at a wanton criminal who’s trying to take me out right away. I mean, you know, there’s a person who he’s a known quantity is a known entity. Right? I mean, he’s subject to the U.S. Army Uniform Code of Military Justice. He’s someone that I can identify, someone who clearly doesn’t have a serious criminal background. I mean, we’re not talking about the head of the Black Guerrilla Family that I pulled over.
[00:05:02] And while I’m certain and you have arrested people in uniform to the right.
[00:05:07] Of course, of course, I mean, I my first job in the Air Force was police, so yes, we do, you know, have military police, military presence. But as an officer, a civilian police officer, when I see a military person, it lets me know that there is some modicum of control that this person or some authority that this person has managed to exist under. And in this case, the gentleman was commissioned officer. And again, you know, the more the person has to lose, the less chance that they’re going to try to do something to me. So instead of being, you know, perturbed or agitated, then I would simply de-escalate the situation. But the officer said that he was well, when the army officer said he was afraid.
[00:06:01] And what was the police response
[00:06:02] response to him is you should be
[00:06:05] that is not an escalation tactic, to put it mildly, and maybe I shouldn’t be forced to put it mildly. I mean, that’s a real asshole thing to do.
[00:06:14] Well, it’s not just an asshole thing to do. I mean, what you’re what you’re really saying is to this man is. Yes, yes. You were you were more than justified in waiting until we were in a well lit area with cameras present because I intend to do you harm. He literally told him that.
[00:06:37] And then were the instructions from the officers. So, I mean, explain how you should do a car stop, I mean, and maybe try and get into why this wasn’t done or not why but how this wasn’t done that way.
[00:06:49] Well, you know, you have to. First of all, there’s a level of professionalism as. You have to protect yourself, but also the person you know in the vehicle that you’re stopping, unless they, you know, obviously are actively trying to harm you. I mean, the element of surprise, the tactical advantage is always with the officer because the officers involved in this case, the car stop.
[00:07:17] Now, you told me earlier that when you approach a car stopped, you would always assume the worst and that might sound odd to people. What did you what do you mean when you say that? I’m sorry. Repeat that, please. You said earlier to me that, you know, when you start basically any scenario situation, but including a car stop mentally, you’re always assuming the worst. Some people say that’s the attitude cops shouldn’t have. But can you explain what you mean when you say that?
[00:07:41] Well, when I was, you know, on the job in Baltimore is something that I actually learned while I was in the military because, again, I started out as a cop there, too. There’s a reaction factor that. You don’t have time to react if you if you wait until the person does something, until they take an aggressive action and you’re not prepared for it, then you’re behind the power curve. So they have like a one or two second advantage on you because you’re thinking about the number of car stops you made, whether you’re going to get off on time, where you’re going to eat that sort of thing and you’re not taking it seriously. So you have to prepare yourself for the worst possible scenario. When I would train new officers, what the first thing I would tell them is you don’t stop a car unless you’re ready to, you know, possibly engage multiple occupants. So it’s a it’s a mental thing. This is not just, you know, I’m clearly in charge. They’re going to do what I say. Everything is going to go right. And then when it doesn’t, you panic. And then when you panic, the training goes out the window, tables go out the window, everything goes out the window, and instead of a calculated risk, it becomes a matter of luck.
[00:09:04] Who gets hurt? How do you go, because I know a lot of times when people are defending bad police actions, they’ll be like, well, the cops, of course, have to assume the worst. So how do you mentally so and let’s, you know, using this case as an example or any case. But so how do you then go from assuming the worst to conclusion? How do you deal with that in mind?
[00:09:25] There’s a difference between policing and firefighting. I mean, you know, policing is an art and firefighting is a science. Firefighting is the same all the time. But in this case, you know, you have to prepare for the worst, but hope for the best you prepared. But once you find out there’s no threat, then you can de-escalate. You don’t escalate. You know, you don’t create exigent circumstances, you know, or you don’t assert your authority as a police officer to teach someone else. And I think that that’s what we saw in this video in Virginia, that they were going to teach him a lesson.
[00:10:07] So if you’re the cop and the driver, let’s say a black man in full military uniform says I’m afraid. What what how do you respond to that?
[00:10:17] You acknowledge it, first of all, you acknowledge it. You say, you know, you understand, sir, I understand. You know, I know where you’re coming from. I appreciate you pulling over in a well lit area. I need to see your driver’s license. Registration, please. That’s it. It’s not difficult. It’s not rocket science.
[00:10:39] Why do you think these officers turned this started with a felony car stop here. Was there a felony? I’m not sure I mean.
[00:10:52] I’m not sure at all why they did that.
[00:10:56] I mean, one of the things that I don’t know how big this police department is, but the town is less than 3000 people in it, if it seems to me and there’s some confirmation bias and I can’t back those with hard data, but a lot of the stuff happens in these small police departments. Do you think that’s part of the problem?
[00:11:19] I think it could be. I, I don’t know. It could be something as simple as. You know, using the. The body worn camera footage and, you know, these small departments, even, you know, just critiquing their car stops, you know, to make sure that what they’re doing is right, you know, and that
[00:11:41] doesn’t happen, huh? And I said, I bet that doesn’t happen. Not until something goes wrong.
[00:11:47] No, I’m sure it doesn’t happen.
[00:11:49] I mean, some departments and NYPD randomly reviews videos and and checks on things. But it’s a large department that actually, despite what many people think is more accountability than most police departments. But these
[00:12:00] small. But I mean, again, I don’t I don’t know how they would do this. I don’t know whether, you know, the case of the small department. They could, you know, let the state look at, you know, just submit batches of film or whatever and let the state look at it or, you know, Maryland police, for instance, of a policing training commission, whether samples should be taken at random just to see what’s going on out in the field. I don’t see a problem with that.
[00:12:28] I also don’t see a movement towards that. I mean, this sounds like what I would say is common sense reform that could actually make things better. But I don’t this is why I just get depressed, because I don’t see I don’t I don’t see improvement in these things.
[00:12:45] And it seems like I mean, I don’t see a problem, you know, I mean, I see a problem because I might have to drive through there. So it’s definitely a problem for me, you know? And I want I expect officer pulls me over to be at least as competent as I
[00:13:04] do, the high level of competency layon problems and all. So, I mean, yeah, we all want Compstat cops, right? So how do we get there? I mean, that’s.
[00:13:21] It’s accountability, I mean, you know, it’s not it’s not going to fly anymore, you know, my life’s in danger. All this stuff, it doesn’t work. It doesn’t work, you know, because. Right. What I’m seeing is the the the cities. It I mean, you know, I mean, it’s different for me. You know, I haven’t been in the military for a long period of time, haven’t been a police officer for a significant portion of time and haven’t been black all my life. My you know, my perspective is going to be a lot different. Yes. I can see where the off the sir in this case, you know, might have felt he had to assert himself. I understand that because there’s an unknown, but what’s the unknown is known and you’re not under direct threat. And again, you have a backup officer, so you’ve got you’ve established the fact that this man is by himself. Right. There’s not five or six people that might you know, we’re three or four of might be armed in this vehicle and it’s dark and you’re isolated somewhere. No, you have a single person, one person in a military uniform, a known quantity person subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice. All right. Who I can easily track. I can easily trace down. There’s not not an issue. Right. And he pulls open a well area with cameras everywhere and witnesses. So, yes. You know, deductive reasoning, one on one, yeah, it makes sense he’s not posing a threat to me and his actions were consistent with what he just said. Hey, I’m afraid enough. I’m a professional police officer. I’m going to tell him yes or I understand. I appreciate your point of view. Well, that area not a problem. You won’t be cited for that. I understand. May I see your driver’s license registration, please? And now we’ve established that I’m hearing him. I understand his position and I appreciate him not being the sort of person who is going to jump out of a car and take a couple of shots at me. I’m actually relieved that he is who he is, but that’s not what we saw. What we saw was. Yeah, you need to be afraid when I hear that. That tells me that my worst fears have come to fruition. That’s what it tells me.
[00:15:50] And that might lead to noncompliance, to put it again, perhaps to mildly,
[00:15:55] survival is not noncompliance. OK, it’s not any more than if the officer said as to him, sir, I need you to roll your window down because I can’t see the be and I’m afraid you might have a weapon. And if the lieutenant were to say to him, yeah, you need to be afraid, what would happen then? Why does this only work for the officer and not for the motorist? I don’t want to stand it, the officer’s job is to control the situation. OK. He’s the professional here. He’s the one with the experience, he’s the one with the system and a structure on his side. Why can’t he control this simple situation and he has backup? Again, the same thing we saw with George Floyd, could not his partner have stepped in to de-escalate? Was this a right thing, was this you know, this is my my you know, my training officer, so I’ve got to, you know, set up and take a backseat, let them take the lead, even though what he’s doing is screw the. There are a lot of dynamics here, but I think it goes back to the same point, and that point is, you know, are we using the tools that we have available, body worn camera footage to periodically monitor what officers do? And if they’re doing the same thing consistently and are doing it right all the time, it shouldn’t be an issue. And at this person knew that that tape might be reviewed. It never would have done it never would have done it.
[00:17:34] And I didn’t then, yeah, I just think I think there’s a more serious problem than a lot of people realize about this, about small police departments and lack of accountability in them. And that’s even giving them the benefit of the doubt and saying they mean well at some, you know, some psychic level, but. I mean, yeah, you got it, I don’t know the size of this police department, probably half the force right there, if
[00:18:01] it could be I mean, for all we know there at half strength right now. And maybe that’s not such a bad thing, you know? But again, it’s it’s incumbent upon police officers. Right. And and we’ve seen it time and time again. It’s like, you know, yes. Yes, we get it. There is a threat. There’s a potential threat. But once you’ve identified that the threat no longer exists, the force has to stop also. This is you know, we’ve seen a seesaw effect here where I think you might be a danger to me, so I’m going to approach you with force and I’m going to approach you with so much force that I’m going to create a dangerous situation in order to justify a more force. So the whole thing just spirals out of control. And really, come on, do you think are these the people that we call, we call them number one one for this? But this guy.
[00:18:58] Now. So the cop, I guess, was fired. I guess you can do that in that town easily. I you know, great, I say, but I also say that doesn’t actually solve the greater problem, does it? Or maybe it does. I don’t know.
[00:19:18] I don’t think so, I think I think what has to happen. You know. Is that you’ve got to be subject, you know, there’s there’s too much autonomy and too little control. I mean, I hate to say it, but more and more of these things are happening. You know, the incident in Minneapolis where officer thinks they’re pulling their taser and they pull their duty weapon and shoot a fleeing suspect. It’s too much and it’s happening, they’re happening, you know, the individuals are getting shorter and shorter between incidents.
[00:20:03] Are they, though? Are we just hearing about the more and more
[00:20:06] these roles we’re hearing about?
[00:20:08] Yeah, but I mean, I think there are a lot more, but I don’t think they’re I don’t think the frequency has increased, but I’m not certain. I’m just kind of basing that purely on the fact that the number of people cops shoot and kill every year is pretty Compstat. Right. I don’t think it’s happening more.
[00:20:20] But but here’s here’s the thing. By the circumstances, you know, these these instances are so egregious. When you hear about that, it it scares the hell out of me. And so if we’re saying that the officers have every right to be afraid because their lives are in danger, what the hell do the is for you? I mean, listen. After some of these stories and the things that are coming to light, I don’t have a good feeling when I get pulled over. OK, when I get up, when I get pulled over by a number one job is to placate the officer. OK, not because I have anything to hide, because I don’t want to be seen as a threat, because I don’t want that that killed change to initiate where they feel that they are in jeopardy and now they have to defend themselves. And I might be d’arte remember, I don’t have control over anything. If I get pulled over, that officer has control. OK, so if they ask, do you have any weapons? Yes, it’s on my hip and almost. I’m retired, I’m a retired officer. To you, that might, you know, that might. The relief, but to an officer who sees me as a threat, no matter what I say or do or what my credentials are.
[00:21:48] And you are a large man and you are a black man.
[00:21:50] I can’t help you. One of those things. You know, I can’t help it that that that should result in, you know, my life being threatened, you know, if I say to this gentleman, hey, listen, I pulled over in a gas station because, you know, I was kind of, you know, unsure about whether you guys are legit cops or whatever. And he said, well, yeah, you should be afraid that’s a threat.
[00:22:16] That is I mean, I don’t know how else to interpret this, I don’t know if it was meant as a threat, though it might have been, but it certainly should be interpreted as one. On that note, partly because our connection has just cut out, maybe that’s a maybe that’s a sign of saying that this episode should end. I don’t know if you can, but you got anything else to say. Otherwise, we’ll leave it at that. This has been quality policing. More is you can find more and probably a link to the video and all that ad qualitypolicing.com. I’m with Leon Taylo,r and maybe you can still write something on from a violence reduction project. I’m still waiting on your piece for that.
[00:23:06] We’ll do that. I think I’ve sufficiently healed now from trauma.
[00:23:10] I don’t I, I doubt that. I talk to you too much time for that. But thank you, everybody, for listening. And I will talk to you next time. All right.
